The following is meant to be visual, with very few words about how to serve, which grip to use, or really anything else.
I am choking up on the racquet so that positions of the butt-cap highlight various moments in the action.
I am demonstrating with a slow swing, the toss is exaggerated well to the right, hopefully to highlight the action.
The following is simply a task. And I believe that with practice, once you get the feeling for this “thing” it will transfer to your own service delivery.
The stills below clarify elements of this task
This is not peeling the orange
This is not snapping the wrist over the ball
This is not pushing the racquet head thru contact
This is Simply hitting the side of the ball with “action”
Hello Jim,
the way you explained the slice serve is very understandable. thank you for that.
Just two quwstions: why do you chocke the racquet? where should I strike the ball? at the back? or at the side? or inbetween?
Thanks once more and realy appricate hints.
Best Rgards
Moustafa
Moustafa – I was choking up and swinging slow to demonstrate, and by choking up the butt cap in various positions showed elements of the action – as to contact this is a bit like putting english on a cue ball – in this instance contact is slightly below and to the right of the absolute midpoint on the back of the ball – on a clock face slightly toward 4:30 but just a little – best Jim
As I note that my comments await moderation, I remind myself to *not* be disappointed if my comments fail to pass moderation. I am totally used to having folks’ eyes glaze over and start looking for the exit when I start going off on this stuff. 🙂 No hard feelings. Goes along with living on the “spectrum” for all these decades. 🙂
Kevin – no worries, there is always science to this and my childhood coach was all about these types of elements.
That said it feels like the most common difficulty at our club is to get the feel for this stroke, and unfortunately I am never sure whether accurate descriptions are useful – perhaps the words get in the way. When I watch other lessons, my suspicion is they are delivered cognitively on the assumption that once the words are heard the stroke is “fixed.”
best
Jim
Devan is on the right track. Topspin comes from causing the ball to rotate around the “x” axis. Sidespin comes from causing the ball to spin around the “y” (vertical) axis – making a righty serve curve leftward. Most serves are struck without a “pure” x or y axis spin, but rather a combination of the two.
I’d have to modify the idea that the contact point (“the side of the ball”) controls the spin. With a Continental grip, if yer gonna get the serve into the box, then, yeah, making contact on the right side of the ball (with a relatively normal toss location) would be mandatory.
OTOH, play with this. Place yer toss well out to the right and strike it at about shoulder height with that same grip. You can come pretty close, then, to a pure “sidespin” “brush” around the vertical “y” axis. Depending on how far forward or back that toss is – say over the baseline vs. even with yer body – you can strike it anywhere between the very “back” of the ball to the far right side of the ball. All of these “brushes” produce close to pure sidespin at that toss height. Actually, with a Continental grip, depending on the actual toss height, you might get some underspin – and some *severe* consternation from yer opponent. 🙂
Kevin – thanks for this – Devan is one of our most inquisitive and determined students – always asking questions. And once many years ago we did have a club member that served just as you described – a very low toss well to the right, and a contact point at the level of his shoulder – and I imagine when you use this serve if you do (rarely does the opponent anticipate by changing their court position)
Truly there are so many ways to play this game, and for so many equally good reasons.
best
Jim
During self isolation I have been reading and watching a lot of videos on golf and tennis. I think I finally have a solid grasp connecting what I know to what I feel. I can only try it out in golf. A week ago I was a genius, this week I am back to being an idiot. But in the words of one of my favorite songs, “I am gonna be a happy idiot and struggle…”
First, due to gravity, ALL serves MUST curve downward. A ball with less spin curves less.
Let’s talk about this for a right handed server. For a slice serve, with a theoretical purely slice spin (the balls spins rotating around the vertical axis only) there are three things that will “curve” the trajectory of the serve.
First, gravity itself, which will cause the ball to move in a curved path regardless of the spin rate.
Second, the purely slice serve which imparts lower area of pressure on the left slice of the ball, and a higher area of pressure on the right. This is due to the spin. The ball travels forward, the right side of the ball is spinning towards the forward direction, increasing the pressure on that side. Conversely, on the left side of the ball, the ball’s rotation is back toward the server, and in the opposite direction of travel, creating less pressure, thus the ball moves toward the left.
Third, ANY slowing of the ball induced by spin (even if it is just a right to left slice serve) reduces the forward speed of the ball, and gravity can pull it downward over a shorter distance than with a flatter serve. That is why a slice serve appears also to curve downward, because the more spin you hit the faster the serve decelerates, and gravity acts on that serve over a shorter distance pulling it downward faster.
William also has it right. But, I *do* think that most of the downward curve on a slice serve is because it *also* has plenty of topspin on it.
Didn’t mention the spin on the “z” axis – the other “horizontal” axis about which a tennis ball may spin (the axis that would be yer finger if you pointed towards yer opponent). That one only affects the way a ball “kicks sideways” after the bounce.
Watch a Rafa topspin forehand off a high ball in slow motion on TV, sometime, and note how similar its fight path is to a righty second serve – *including* the sideways kick. Nasty.
Bill – also why better players swing even faster at second serves with the intent of increasing the spin rate – but equally it feels to me that “up side spin” (as it were) is actually spinning from 4:30 to 10:30 on the face of the ball such that with Federer and others there is a varying amount of downward drop depending on the actual axis of rotation
Jim
I know why topspin brings the ball down (Magnus effect), but why does sidespin achieve a similar result? It makes sense that a ball with sidespin curves sideways, but I am confused about why it also curves downward.
Same reason topspin curves down. The fuzz creates high pressure on the right and low pressure on left as it pushes air Against air resistance on right and less resistance on left
Jim, I’ve played tennis for 60 years but I have never possessed an effective slice serve; maybe because my shoulder and wrist aren’t loose enough. But for the past 15 t0 20 years I hit some phenomenal sliced overheads in certain situations. Timing is all important and as you know and as you know an 85 year olds timing isn’t frequently perfect. So here’s the situation: In doubles my partner is at the net in the even court and I’m on the baseline in the ad court when one of the opponents lobs my partner, usually it is the even court opponent. Many times it’s a deep,high bouncing ball. I’m still able to run and I hit the ball when I’m mostly facing the right sideline. This radical body positioning with respect to the ball creates wicked side spin. Yes such a fat, slow moving ball is duck begging to be shot and it is most effective against players who don’t read the ball’s flight very well, but this radically sliced shot has had success against some higher level players. I live in a University city and play with coaches and some former collegiate players. I’ve been attempting to incorporate some of the mechanics of the sliced overhead into my service motion but, alas I’m a pretty slow learner. Thanks Jim for the opportunity to share. Wayne Beymer.
17 Comments
Moustafa
April 6, 2020Hello Jim,
the way you explained the slice serve is very understandable. thank you for that.
Just two quwstions: why do you chocke the racquet? where should I strike the ball? at the back? or at the side? or inbetween?
Thanks once more and realy appricate hints.
Best Rgards
Moustafa
Jim McLennan
April 6, 2020Moustafa – I was choking up and swinging slow to demonstrate, and by choking up the butt cap in various positions showed elements of the action – as to contact this is a bit like putting english on a cue ball – in this instance contact is slightly below and to the right of the absolute midpoint on the back of the ball – on a clock face slightly toward 4:30 but just a little – best Jim
Kevin Bryant
April 5, 2020As I note that my comments await moderation, I remind myself to *not* be disappointed if my comments fail to pass moderation. I am totally used to having folks’ eyes glaze over and start looking for the exit when I start going off on this stuff. 🙂 No hard feelings. Goes along with living on the “spectrum” for all these decades. 🙂
Jim McLennan
April 5, 2020Kevin – no worries, there is always science to this and my childhood coach was all about these types of elements.
That said it feels like the most common difficulty at our club is to get the feel for this stroke, and unfortunately I am never sure whether accurate descriptions are useful – perhaps the words get in the way. When I watch other lessons, my suspicion is they are delivered cognitively on the assumption that once the words are heard the stroke is “fixed.”
best
Jim
Kevin Bryant
April 5, 2020Devan is on the right track. Topspin comes from causing the ball to rotate around the “x” axis. Sidespin comes from causing the ball to spin around the “y” (vertical) axis – making a righty serve curve leftward. Most serves are struck without a “pure” x or y axis spin, but rather a combination of the two.
I’d have to modify the idea that the contact point (“the side of the ball”) controls the spin. With a Continental grip, if yer gonna get the serve into the box, then, yeah, making contact on the right side of the ball (with a relatively normal toss location) would be mandatory.
OTOH, play with this. Place yer toss well out to the right and strike it at about shoulder height with that same grip. You can come pretty close, then, to a pure “sidespin” “brush” around the vertical “y” axis. Depending on how far forward or back that toss is – say over the baseline vs. even with yer body – you can strike it anywhere between the very “back” of the ball to the far right side of the ball. All of these “brushes” produce close to pure sidespin at that toss height. Actually, with a Continental grip, depending on the actual toss height, you might get some underspin – and some *severe* consternation from yer opponent. 🙂
Jim McLennan
April 5, 2020Kevin – thanks for this – Devan is one of our most inquisitive and determined students – always asking questions. And once many years ago we did have a club member that served just as you described – a very low toss well to the right, and a contact point at the level of his shoulder – and I imagine when you use this serve if you do (rarely does the opponent anticipate by changing their court position)
Truly there are so many ways to play this game, and for so many equally good reasons.
best
Jim
Donald McDonald
April 5, 2020During self isolation I have been reading and watching a lot of videos on golf and tennis. I think I finally have a solid grasp connecting what I know to what I feel. I can only try it out in golf. A week ago I was a genius, this week I am back to being an idiot. But in the words of one of my favorite songs, “I am gonna be a happy idiot and struggle…”
William
April 5, 2020Okay.
First, due to gravity, ALL serves MUST curve downward. A ball with less spin curves less.
Let’s talk about this for a right handed server. For a slice serve, with a theoretical purely slice spin (the balls spins rotating around the vertical axis only) there are three things that will “curve” the trajectory of the serve.
First, gravity itself, which will cause the ball to move in a curved path regardless of the spin rate.
Second, the purely slice serve which imparts lower area of pressure on the left slice of the ball, and a higher area of pressure on the right. This is due to the spin. The ball travels forward, the right side of the ball is spinning towards the forward direction, increasing the pressure on that side. Conversely, on the left side of the ball, the ball’s rotation is back toward the server, and in the opposite direction of travel, creating less pressure, thus the ball moves toward the left.
Third, ANY slowing of the ball induced by spin (even if it is just a right to left slice serve) reduces the forward speed of the ball, and gravity can pull it downward over a shorter distance than with a flatter serve. That is why a slice serve appears also to curve downward, because the more spin you hit the faster the serve decelerates, and gravity acts on that serve over a shorter distance pulling it downward faster.
Hope that helps.
Bill
Kevin Bryant
April 5, 2020William also has it right. But, I *do* think that most of the downward curve on a slice serve is because it *also* has plenty of topspin on it.
Didn’t mention the spin on the “z” axis – the other “horizontal” axis about which a tennis ball may spin (the axis that would be yer finger if you pointed towards yer opponent). That one only affects the way a ball “kicks sideways” after the bounce.
Watch a Rafa topspin forehand off a high ball in slow motion on TV, sometime, and note how similar its fight path is to a righty second serve – *including* the sideways kick. Nasty.
Joan
April 5, 2020Great explanation.
Jim McLennan
April 5, 2020Thanks – I tried to keep it simple
Jim
Jim McLennan
April 5, 2020Bill – also why better players swing even faster at second serves with the intent of increasing the spin rate – but equally it feels to me that “up side spin” (as it were) is actually spinning from 4:30 to 10:30 on the face of the ball such that with Federer and others there is a varying amount of downward drop depending on the actual axis of rotation
Jim
Devan Perkash
April 5, 2020Hi Coach,
I know why topspin brings the ball down (Magnus effect), but why does sidespin achieve a similar result? It makes sense that a ball with sidespin curves sideways, but I am confused about why it also curves downward.
Thanks,
Devan
Jim McLennan
April 5, 2020Devan – I cannot explain but believe the sidespin does have a downward effect – sorry to be so vague
Jim
Donald McDonald
April 5, 2020Same reason topspin curves down. The fuzz creates high pressure on the right and low pressure on left as it pushes air Against air resistance on right and less resistance on left
Rene Rivera
April 5, 2020“a picture is worth a thousand words” appreciate your subtle yet profound style of teaching !! Thanks.
wayne beymer
April 5, 2020Jim, I’ve played tennis for 60 years but I have never possessed an effective slice serve; maybe because my shoulder and wrist aren’t loose enough. But for the past 15 t0 20 years I hit some phenomenal sliced overheads in certain situations. Timing is all important and as you know and as you know an 85 year olds timing isn’t frequently perfect. So here’s the situation: In doubles my partner is at the net in the even court and I’m on the baseline in the ad court when one of the opponents lobs my partner, usually it is the even court opponent. Many times it’s a deep,high bouncing ball. I’m still able to run and I hit the ball when I’m mostly facing the right sideline. This radical body positioning with respect to the ball creates wicked side spin. Yes such a fat, slow moving ball is duck begging to be shot and it is most effective against players who don’t read the ball’s flight very well, but this radically sliced shot has had success against some higher level players. I live in a University city and play with coaches and some former collegiate players. I’ve been attempting to incorporate some of the mechanics of the sliced overhead into my service motion but, alas I’m a pretty slow learner. Thanks Jim for the opportunity to share. Wayne Beymer.
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